never scold hardly

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Re: never scold hardly

Post by Ken Greenwald » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:06 pm

How about,”his parents hardly ever reprimand him.”
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by Wizard of Oz » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:56 am

dante said:

..dante..who is hardly ever wrong..
.. dante mate I love a man who knows his limits .. *grin* ..

WoZ who is hardly ever hard ..... to find that is ..
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by dante » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:58 am

Modesty and propriety can lead to notoriety is what Sting says, and I took the man seriously.
Not that I know what he meant, or how that happens exactly though :)
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by dante » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:58 pm

Now I think of this phrase you chose as the title Steven, maybe I was a bit misled to think that you'd had in mind "hard" and not "hardly" by the position of "hardly" there.
I guess that you can remember as a rule that, except with the verb "to be", you can only use "hardly" before the main verb, not after it as you did. Degree adverbs come before the verb (or other head) they modify, hardly any of them can come after :)
"Hard" is an adverb of manner and it, typically for this semantic class of adverbs, comes after the verb. That means that, grammatically speaking, you could "scold hard" but not "hard scold" while you could "hardly scold" but not "scold hardly".
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by Stevenloan » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:14 pm

Ken Greenwald wrote:How about,”his parents hardly ever reprimand him.”
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Ken – April 26, 2011

I like other members' versions. I like your version as well, Ken Greenwald :)

StevenSakura
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by PhilHunt » Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:34 pm

I'd just like to go back to a point that Dante made about badly being an adverb of manner. This is often the case but not always. Compare:

1) He drove the car badly

2) He broke his leg badly


Could it be said that they are both adverbs of manner?

Hardly is also a tricky one.
I agree with everything everyone has said (which would be impossible) but the view has been a bit too narrow. I would go with the idea of hardly as both a contracted form of hardly-ever [adverb of frequency] and a multi- faceted modifier: Look at some examples.

There were hardly any lights on in the village.
I have hardly a penny to my name.
He is hardly rich.
I can hardly recall what he looks like.
I can't recall hardly anything of what he said.
Hardly a sound was heard.
I was driving hardly over the limit.


Though hardly modifies the elements to a phrase it is not universally one element [a noun, adjective, adverb, verb, clause], so it does not fit the bill of a usual modifier. In this case I actually prefer Dante's adjunct idea.

'Hardly' is one of those words, like 'just', which, for me at least, carries a conceptual idea that is universal in all the cases it is used, while not being easily pigeon-holed into one category.
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by dante » Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:13 pm

Hello Phil Hunt,
1) He drove the car badly

2) He broke his leg badly

Could it be said that they are both adverbs of manner?
How I understand the sentences, yes, and I'll concede that it might be up to my imperfect English that I am not able to spot the difference there.
I would go with the idea of hardly as both a contracted form of hardly-ever [adverb of frequency] and a multi- faceted modifier:
I know what you mean, and although I wouldn't use the terminology you used, making comparison between word class of adverbs and functional category of modifiers, I will agre and I've said similar thing in one of my previous posts.

"Hardly" can't be regarded as a central, typical member of the class of adverbs for the reasons I stated before. But, I'll stick with my previous assertion that "hardly" is, in regard to its position in the sentence, typical member of the class of degree adverbs and I'll return again to my broader assertion that, although not central member of the class of adverbs, "hardly" still share enough properties with the class of adverbs, and is not forced into the class for the sake of fitting the grammatical concept.
As a verb modifier, "hardly", like other degree adverbs, normally, if that verb is not "to be", comes before the main verb, and if there's an auxiliary verb, then in between the auxiliary verb and main verb. As an external modifier in a noun phrase , "hardly" can appear in any place in the sentence which is normally filled by a noun phrase, as it is part of it. The second, fourth, fifth sentence nicely illustrate this use of "hardly". "Hardly a penny", "hardly anything", "hardly a sound" are noun phrases, functioning as direct object and subject in the respective sentences. If "hardly" is used on its own, it's functionally going to be an adjunct - a sentence element. In other words, if you, say, remove the head "anything" (and the following "of") from the sentence:

I can recall hardly anything of what he said.

you will see that it renders "hardly" unacceptable in that position, and you will have to move it before the main verb to make the sentence acceptable:

I can hardly recall what he said.
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by Edwin F Ashworth » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:14 pm

Hardlycanute confused rival epic-cryptographers by writing in invisible ink, thus causing consternation among form-and-function fundamentalists.
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by PhilHunt » Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:52 pm

I can't recall hardly anything of what he said.

you will see that it renders "hardly" unacceptable in that position, and you will have to move it before the main verb to make the sentence acceptable:

I can hardly recall what he said.
Sorry to contradict you there Dante, but my original sentence was correct. Placing hardly before the verb changes the meaning.

'I can hardly recall what he said' means 'I can remember practically nothing of the words or general topic of what he said'.
[hardly is modifying the sense of the verb]
'I can't recall hardly anything of what he said' means 'I remember very little of the content of what he said, but I do remember something and I probably remember the topic'.
[hardly is modifying the object]

Oliver Hardly would never stand on his Laurels over this one.
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by Erik_Kowal » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:25 am

PhilHunt wrote:
I can't recall hardly anything of what he said.

you will see that it renders "hardly" unacceptable in that position, and you will have to move it before the main verb to make the sentence acceptable:

I can hardly recall what he said.
I can't recall hardly anything of what he said

is incorrect in formal Standard English not because of the placement of 'hardly', but because of the use of 'can't' rather than 'can':

I can recall hardly anything of what he said.

You can stand on your dignity, your rights or your head, but not your laurels. You sit on those.
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by dante » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:38 am

I wasn't focused on the meaning of the two sentences Phil. My intention was to show that when you strip "hardly" of its noun head, it renders the previous position of "hardly", when it is part of a noun phrase, unacceptable.
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by PhilHunt » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:00 am

But Erik, that was my point exactly.
Oliver Hardly would never stand on his Laurel - I guess you didn't like the pun.

Dante,
Sorry I skim read your post and missed the ghist of what you were saying.
My apologies.
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by Edwin F Ashworth » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:17 am

Ghistmisser.
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by dante » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:33 am

No worries Phil.
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Re: never scold hardly

Post by Edwin F Ashworth » Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:43 pm

I didn't thank you for the coinage multi-faceted modifier (MFM) Phil - it might just catch on.
Even, just and only are other MFMs.
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