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complex vs. complicated
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Author:  dante [ Sat May 30, 2009 10:50 pm ]
Post subject:  complex vs. complicated
Hello everyone,

An interesting distinction between those two words was always intruguing to me. Those words are used in the serbian language and people use it oftentime ( "kompleksno" and "komplikovano" with variations to genders with which I will not bother you :).
I've come across one article on the net where the phrase “a complex and complicated investigation.” is considered as an example of redundancy. Various dictionaries confirm this thesis including OED and Cambridge ALD. Here's the link to the article http://www.dailywritingtips.com/complex ... mplicated/

This made me search the net for discussions on the subject and after reading a few I don't feel any smarter on this.

My opinion is that "complex" and "complicated" cannot be used synonymously despite the dictionary of thesaurus which I use noted those words as synonyms. I can't be too assertive when discussing the english vocabulary of course but those two words being used internationally with the same meaning I think I can say this with more confidence. "Complex" doesn't mean "complicated" neccessarily. Things can be complex without being complicated and vice versa. In my understanding, the core meaning of "complex" is " consisting of many interactive parts" and I'd say it is pretty much objective term describing "matter of fact" situation. We cannot discuss or argue if something is complex or not usually, since its more like a fact than opinion. For example, the phrase "a complex issue" (840.000 hits on google) means that the issue can/need to be considered from many aspects (say, from social aspect, psychological, linguistic etc.). It doesn't neccessarily mean that the issue is difficult to understand. "Difficult" is in domain of "complicated" how I understand it.
"Complicated" means "not easy to understand/grasp intellectually". For example, if someone says to me : "this machinery is complicated", what I hear is : " it takes time to get into/learn all the intricacies of this machinery and how it works". "Complicated" includes a personal opinion, judgment of the speaker, which oftentime implies some modifying words or phrases (i.e "complicated to understand for non-professionals" )

I would like to read your discussion on the subject.
Author:  dante [ Sun May 31, 2009 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: complex vs. complicated
I think that the morpheme "multi" comes in handy in explaining the word "complex". It is closely related to the core of the meaning of "complex" in my opinion. So, as the synonyms for "complex" I would use:

multifaceted, multidimensional, multilayered
Author:  russcable [ Sun May 31, 2009 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: complex vs. complicated
While there are situations where one is more perfect than the other, the meanings are intertwined.
Look at it this way:
Complex means "made up of a lot of things". Complicated means "having complication(s)".
A complication is a thing. Complexity is a complication.
Therefore, something with a lot of complications is complex and something complex is complicated.
Then, there are personal and situational judgements. How much is "a lot of things" to you and how many complications must something have before you think it's complicated?
Author:  dante [ Sun May 31, 2009 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: complex vs. complicated
Hello russcable,

Quote:
Then, there are personal and situational judgements. How much is "a lot of things" to you and how many complications must something have before you think it's complicated?


Exactly my point russcable.For me, "complex" is a more objective word and "complicated" in its meaning has something of an opinion and subjective feeling of the thing or concept in question, or as you said "personal and situational judgment" of it. You can take the phrase "a complex structure" for example and you will see that any science uses "complex" as an exact, given feature(attribute)in the definitions of the very basic notion of the structure in question. Here are some examples I've found on the net:

"Your lower back is a complex structure of vertebrae, discs, spinal cord and nerves."

"The bacterial flagellum is a complex structure."

"The human hair is a complex structure; it has a unique physical and chemical composition, with a well
characterised micro- and nano-structure."

I guess that "complicated" isn't used in similar definitions. "Complicated" associate me to something which requires a mental effort to be resolved, unraveled, disentangled, explained or clarified.

On the other hand any language isn't so a straightforward thing so that the frequency of the use of those words in the relevant situations will decide what meaning people ascribe to them. Nothing is written in stone when its about the language, because any language is a living organism no doubt about it.
Author:  Ken Greenwald [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: complex vs. complicated
Dante, As a practical matter and for one who is interested in word usage, I wouldn’t make a distinction between the two (e.g. It’s a complex problem vs. It’s a complicated problem), although I can see the point you are trying to make. However, even if you make the distinction in the wording of a sentence, it is unlikely that others would always pick up on this (although this should not necessarily be the criteria for what one says). And, as you mentioned, I don’t see that most dictionaries distinguish between the two – which makes trying to convey a difference a bit of an uphill battle.

Also, it seems to me that often both COMPLEX and COMPLICATED are subjective designations and cannot be taken as absolutes. They may be perceived to be or not to be in the eyes of a beholder – what strikes one as being a simple problem may strike another as being complex or complicated, depending on one’s point of view or level of expertise (e.g. a many-stepped arithmetic problems involving multiplication, addition, and subtraction by hand).

Pardon the repetition but here is what two dictionaries had to say:

OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY

COMPLICATED adjective: Consisting of an intimate combination of parts or elements not easy to unravel or separate; involved, intricate, confused.

COMPLEX adjective;

1) Consisting of or comprehending various parts united or connected together; formed by combination of different elements; composite, compound. Said of things, ideas, etc. (Opposed to simple, both here and in sense #2.

2) Especially, consisting of parts or elements not simply co-ordinated, but some of them involved in various degrees of subordination; complicated, involved, intricate; not easily analysed or disentangled.
_________________________

AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY

COMPLICATED adjective: 1) Containing intricately combined or involved parts. 2) Not easy to understand or analyze. See Synonyms at complex. See Synonyms at elaborate.

COMPLEX adjective: 1). Consisting of interconnected or interwoven parts; composite. 2) Involved or intricate, as in structure; complicated.
_________________________

So, although trying to make a distinction between COMPLICATED and COMPLEX may be interesting and possibly theoretically justified in some instances, realistically it doesn’t seem that useful. Of course a lot of what we do around here on Wordwizard doesn’t seem that useful, so that should, of course, be no impediment to discussing it! (<;)
_________________

Ken – May 31, 2009
Author:  dante [ Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: complex vs. complicated
Thank you for the discussion Ken.

I think I'll protest at the website of Oxford dictionary and American Heritage dictionary against the explanation of "complex" under 2). I'll protest nude if neccessary :)
Not being useful definitely isn't an impediment for me to discuss this subject. Au contraire!
I think that a problem with people today is exactly in doing too much useful things and so little fun things.
Author:  Wizard of Oz [ Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: complex vs. complicated
.. dante .. I am in your court with this one and I would use complex and complicated differently .. to me complex is used in a technical/scientific situation .. it is the goto adjective when I am speaking about a thing/situation that has been discovered, described and the makings of which are known and can be learned by study albeit, at times, lengthy study .. complicated on the other hand I would use when the situation requires me to do the working out and can refer to more mundane matters .. there is an element of possible confusion .. for a simple example putting an Ikea bookshelf together can be complicated .. understanding the machines that make all the component pieces for the bookshelf and how the board is passed along and cut and drilled and the like is complex ..

.. as I say this is how I would choose to use the words if I was speaking .. having said that I would understand both words if somebody else used them and would decipher what they meant by the context ..

WoZ using his Allen key
Author:  dante [ Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: complex vs. complicated
Hello WoZ,

That would be close to my understanding of the words.
I do not want to contradict the dictionary definitions (an uphil battle, cf Ken, a few days ago :), but I also do not take the definitions from the dictionaries as written in stone, more so knowing that information from different dictionaries are sometimes contradictory. It's my habit to run information through my brain before accepting them as true.Finally, the prevalent usage of these words will get them one or the other meaning, that goes without saying.
I must say again that I ventured to open the thread and the discussion on the subject only because the meaning of these words is identical in the serbian language and I guess in most of the other world languages.

I've just noticed that I was the last contributor in the last five threads. WoZ, pardon me for stealing your style once again

..dante is taking a break from posting for a while..
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